Russia 88, a story of skinheads, is finally released. Officially certified, the film by Pavel Bardin is shunned by movie theaters. When it was to be run within the framework of Spirit of Fire film festival in Khanty-Mansiisk, organizers of the film festival got a call from the Kremlin. They were told in no uncertain terms that Russia 88 was to be left without the grand prix. The jury opted for a compromise then and gave Bardin's film a special award. Here is an interview with Pavel Bardin, author of the film that is bordering on being a taboo.

Ferghana.Ru: How long did compilation of material take? How long did you "handle" it before getting down to the script?

Pavel Bardin: As a matter of fact, we had the plot even before we had everything else. Compilation of material took approximately six months. That was when we dealt with skinheads themselves... Once it was done, writing the script did not take long at all. A month and a half, or so.

Ferghana.Ru: How did you find skinheads? Did regular contacts with them make you want to puke perhaps? Or was it vice versa? Was it perhaps the Stockholm Syndrome so that you started to sympathize with them?

Pavel Bardin: They are people too, you know. It's just that people sometimes become animals. Anyway, dismissing these thousands of our compatriots as animals will be cruel. Even worse, it will offer no solution to the problem we all are facing.

Ferghana.Ru: But chalking them off as animals might be a correct thing to do. After all, the correct diagnosis is a must before treatment.

Pavel Bardin: All right, let's say that we've diagnosed them as animals. What then? Hunt them down?

Ferghana.Ru: I don't know. Perhaps... Anyway, it is wrong that their symbols, books, and leaflets are so easily available. And they are available, aren't they? You did openly buy everything you needed for the film.

Pavel Bardin: Yes, I did, and yes, all of that is available. But consider this: if and when outlawed, they will only go underground, learn to keep a low profile, and keep murdering people. Only do it more frequently.

Ferghana.Ru: Do you think "more frequently" is possible? Do you really think that the frequency of murders depends on whether they are outlawed or permitted to march down the streets?

Pavel Bardin: Sure. I'm convinced that there is a direct relationship. As soon as the authorities began to take skinheads seriously and declared a war on them, skinheads went underground and murders began. There is the Penal Code, there is the Constitution. The acting legislation expressly bans skinhead books and reels in the Internet. There are articles of the Penal Code that address this problem. What I'm saying is that there is the law and let's abide by it. Why condemn them as animals as well? If we do, they will have absolutely nothing to lose. It will be wrong to make them cornered rats. Few of them will never mend their ways. Many more have the potential of quitting their gangs.

It is now that the situation is deteriorating. So far as I know, it was different until recently and most youngsters quit their gangs as soon as they grew out of the adolescent aggression period.

Ferghana.Ru: What if they quit gangs? Their mentality remains unchanged all the same, in gangs or out of them.

Pavel Bardin: Whenever a young man decides that he does not want to participate in actions of his gang anymore, it's already something. People should be permitted to speak their mind - within the framework of the Penal Code, of course. If they are, they will be speaking, not murdering someone else.

Ferghana.Ru: Do you think their ideas might be aired within the framework of the Penal Code?

Pavel Bardin: Any idea may be formulated in such a manner as to avoid a collision with the Penal Code. Drift to moderate nationalism in speeches is possible as some politicians plainly show. I stand for an open society. Calling skinheads animals is totalitarian.

Ferghana.Ru: I've always taken it pretty much for granted that the authorities sympathize with skinheads. After all, skinhead slogans constitute a violation of the Penal Code, and so do their books that are easily available in stores and elsewhere. Moreover, the places where skinheads meet are known to just about everyone including the police. What do you think of this open and unmolested existence of skinheads in Russia? Could the authorities be really interested in existence of these organizations?

Pavel Bardin: On the one hand, everything is easily available indeed and nobody gets prosecuted for it. Save for Hatchet, probably. On the other, television does not even acknowledge existence of this problem, much less its gravity. There are no debates or discussions. Neither fascists nor anti-fascists are represented in the parliament. Members of one and the same political party might be fascists and anti-fascists.

Ferghana.Ru: Yeah, and pretend that their views are nobody else's businesses.

Pavel Bardin: The authorities lack a clear and coherent stand on the matter. An individual might hold forth on the so called ethnic crime and call himself an anti-fascist. It's wrong, of course. Either a person believes that crime may be ethnic, or he is an anti-fascist.

Ferghana.Ru: What if the authorities' loyalty stems from their helplessness? Do the powers-that-be in Russia protect fascists? Do they choose not to notice existence of fascists because they cannot really do anything about it?

Pavel Bardin: That's just guesswork.

Ferghana.Ru: Sure it is. But you studied materials for the film, didn't you? What's your impression?

Pavel Bardin: I do believe that these organizations have protection in the corridors of power because they wouldn't have lasted long otherwise. They even have sponsors. In a word, there are these groups and there are security structures that support them. I frequently hear that there are men in security structures who protect fascists - because they find their ideology attractive or for some other reason. Men like that serve in the police and probably in the Federal Security Service too.

I do not think, however, that fascists are manifestation of some grandiose state idea or anything... I'd say that the powers-that-be are truly helpless. After all 70% Russians back the slogan "Russia for the Russians". The authorities in their turn lack the political will to start explaining to the masses what fascism is or what bigotry is.

Ferghana.Ru: You did meet with skinheads...

Pavel Bardin: With some of them.

Ferghana.Ru: When they say "Russia for the Russians", what do they mean - from the territorial standpoint? Russia without the Caucasus? Russia without Buryatia and Tatarstan? Without Siberia?

Pavel Bardin: Skinheads are different. Some think that there should be a small country but with the Russian population only. Others believe that it should be an empire with peoples of different standing. Pure Russians as the master race; the peoples that have been living in Russia and that are entitled to some rights and privileges even though they are second-rate peoples; and finally the peoples that are not supposed to have any rights at all - peoples from the Caucasus and Central Asia. From this standpoint, the Tatars are a second-rate people.

There are fascists and there are fascists. They differ in the intensity of intolerance. Actually, I like it that they never reached a consensus. They lack a single leader and commonalty of views on what kind of a country Russia should be. It's when they finally end up with a single leader promoting the idea of a single country and a single people that we'll be in real trouble. As matters stand, they are busy with a conflict of ideologies. They cannot even decide if they support Orthodox Christianity or not.

Ferghana.Ru: Fascists against Orthodox Christianity? What else is there for them to support?

Pavel Bardin: Heathenism. Fascists in Germany promoted it too, once. Very many German fascists believed that Christianity was but part of the Jewish cabal of Zionists.

Ferghana.Ru: What is their attitude toward the Great Patriotic War?

Pavel Bardin: Moderate skinheads maintain that Stalin the great leader defeated German aggressors. Skinheads toying with Russian nationalism dislike the whole subject of Hitler. They view Stalin as a great man, they do not like all these games with the swastika. Very many people who promote fascist views at the same time call themselves anti-fascists and opine that Hitler was a monster.

Ultras in the meantime believe that Hitler was all right because he aimed to cure Russia of the communist plague. These people view Vlasov's followers and the Russian Liberation Army as heroes. Nazi skinheads regard Communism as part of the global Jewish conspiracy. This theory is flawed, of course, but discerning the truth is getting increasingly more difficult. Young mean read the books given them by their "mentors". They are deprived of the opportunity to compare data.

Ferghana.Ru: They can read?

Pavel Bardin: Some of them. Some cannot. Some skinheads are superbly educated and knowledgeable - but only on one subject. They never read Voltaire or Rousseau of course but they are well-versed in history of fascism. Given half a chance, they will argue over what was Mussolini's fascism and what was Hitler's for hours on end. These people always try to come up with academic proof of absence of nationalist roots in fascism which is a lie of course.

Some skinheads on the other hand never read anything at all. I met with one of these men. He called himself a Nazi skinhead but couldn't pronounce Mein Kampf. It was clear that he had never read this book and did not know what it was about.

Love of Hitler is part of Nazi skinhead subculture. There are, however, many other ultra-right youth organizations that are not Nazi skinheads. Matter of fact, Nazi skinheads might eventually disappear altogether because the Russian mentality finds them and their aesthetics outlandish.

Ferghana.Ru: It's beyond me, you know. Our grandfathers fought fascists. What are these people thinking about? How can they respect their forefathers and Hitler all at the same time?

Pavel Bardin: Well, forefathers did fight but their mentality was scrambled too. They abhorred Hitler but adored Stalin... I was told a story once of a Nazi skinhead visiting his grandfather in a village. Some wood needed chopping and the young man volunteered to do it. When he removed his T-shirt, his grandfather saw his tattoos - runes, swastika, the whole lot... "You bastard! I fought fascists!" the old man screamed. He scratched his head then and admitted, "Not that I myself like Jews very much." That was that. Like grandfather, like grandson. Actually, this episode is typical. It was not fascism that people fought. They fought for their land, for their families, for the Motherland.

Neither is this problem acknowledged. Unless we dethrone Stalin, we cannot hope to eradicate this adoration of Hitler. As long as we justify Stalin and what he did, we'll be able to justify anything.

Ferghana.Ru: What segment of society do these ultras constitute?

Pavel Bardin: I'd say that good people outnumber bad ones. Granted that 70% claim that Russia should be for the Russians, they say it without being aware what this position may result in and who they really support by saying it. Claiming that Russia should be for the Russians, these people may even become friends with someone from the Caucasus or Central Asia. No need to go to extremes to uproot this shallow ideology.

Every time Russia 88 is discussed someone from the audience inevitably claims that he firmly believes that Russia is for the Russians, that he knows what he is talking about, and that he doesn't mind bloodshed in the least. We encountered these people even at the Cinema Institute and at clubs for the elite.

Ferghana.Ru: Explaining how he had become a fascist in the first place, your main character said he was afraid of "the blackies". Is this what fascists' hatred about? Is it about fear?

Pavel Bardin: Yes. I talked to some businessmen once. They told me of a party of the Chechens celebrating something or other they had attended once. The businessmen said they had been certainly uneasy. One even admitted that he would have tossed a hand grenade at the Chechens had he had one. It was not fear as such, it was dislike and feeling of danger. Typical xenophobia. It is necessary now to make the next step and realize that this fear is irrational, that if someone is dancing aggressively, it does not mean that this someone is about to attack others. This fear is instinctive, it is the locomotive force of hatred.

Ferghana.Ru: But people fear skinheads too.

Pavel Bardin: They are feared because they are physically strong and aggressive. All the same, people usually regard skinheads as their own. I often hear the following premise, "I'm an anti-fascist, I'm not a racist. Our grandfathers fought fascists. Still, there is something in what these skinheads say..." Very many regard skinheads as society's immune system but we do not really need immune systems like this.

Ferghana.Ru: Well, we do not really choose our own immunity, do we?

Pavel Bardin: People do choose. They support skinheads or we wouldn't be seeing the latter at all. Skinheads feel this support.

Ferghana.Ru: Do you really think that it is possible to persuade skinheads to mend their ways?

Pavel Bardin: Not all of them, of course. I met with two nationalists in Nizhny Novgorod, not Nazi skinheads. Tough guys, they did not like Russia 88. They thought that nationalists in the film were depicted like clowns, in a deliberately derisive manner, and that they really deserved better. They said they were more serious and better educated than one might think. We had a talk and I tried to explain that life was even more bizarre than the film. I referred to reels in the Internet, to media coverage of skinhead trials, and so on. All these materials made it absolutely plain that even if a skinhead ringleader was more or less educated, his gang members were not.

It was a long talk. Eventually, I told them what nationalism could become within the framework of the Penal Code. The gist was this: if you object to illegal immigrants, there is no need to murder anyone to make your point. You'd better organize pickets and protests near the construction sites where illegal immigrants are employed. Or organize pickets in front of the Federal Service of Immigration. Bring action against whoever employes illegal immigrants. Why don't you establish a legitimate human rights movement? I said. There is nothing to prevent you from fighting illegal immigration by legitimate means, by demanding a proper immigration policy, I said. And if you abide by the law, then the TV and parliament should be yours for the asking.

Ferghana.Ru: You believe it, don't you?

Pavel Bardin: If these people stop murdering others and start protesting against crooks in civil service who make illegal immigrants and their employment possible in the first place, I will only welcome it. And if they start regarding whoever speaks Russian and honors Russian culture as the Russians too, then I will become a nationalist myself. Their theory of pure blood is fraud. Unfortunately, nobody has ever told them that the purer the blood, the more dramatic the degeneracy.

Nazi skinheads number dozens of thousands, and not all of them are murderers. They are different. Their ideologists meanwhile give them book on street terror to read. All this energy needs a different channel. Instructions should be different: come on, guys, stop the murders and start fighting for an adequate immigration policy. Sure, it's more difficult and someone may lose interest, but that's the correct way for them and for society as such. This ideology needs a legitimate vent because it will erupt in street violence otherwise.

Ferghana.Ru: Russia 88 ends with a martyrology, with names of skinheads' victims. How many did they murder in 2008?

Pavel Bardin: More than 100 people. We used two lists - one compiled by Sova center and the other by the Moscow Bureau for Human Rights. I made sure of the spelling before inserting the list into the film.

Ferghana.Ru: The story ends with the main character's death. When someone becomes a Nazi skinhead, is it the end for him?

Pavel Bardin: It is, for us. This idea is self-destructive. When one takes nourishment from hatred, he destroys himself. Sooner or later, it results in physical destruction. Neo-Nazis criticize this ending, but there are stories that cannot have a happy end. Like drugs. That's a direct path to Hell.

Ferghana.Ru: And yet you believe that they may be persuaded and that the situation in the country is amendable?

Pavel Bardin: Yes, I do. Not overnight, thought. Not even in a single year. Put banners everywhere and start showing social reels on TV, but that will change nothing.

Ferghana.Ru: I see. It is necessary to alter school curricula, write new textbooks, start paying decent pensions to war veterans and retirees, and show them respect...

Pavel Bardin: Well, you know it as well as I do.

Ferghana.Ru: But that's precisely why I do not think that the situation may be amended.

Pavel Bardin: That's not what I think. Once again, political will is lacking. It is necessary to give the order, for example, to write new history textbooks and finally tell the truth. People should know that whoever denied Minin and Pozharsky assistance were executed, that our soldiers, weaponless, were put on the path of advancing German tanks, that offensives were scheduled to coincide with specific dates that had nothing to do with the strategic situation on the front... Will is lacking.

Ferghana.Ru: It's not will that is lacking. It is courage that is lacking. After all, they had the will to call Khanty-Mansiisk and tell the jury to deny Russia 88 grand prix.

Pavel Bardin: I do not know who called whom or where... What I know, what I believe is this: whoever dislikes Russia 88 should finally understand that this is an anti-fascist film, that it does not criticize the authorities or anything and that it only calls for political will. Even if somebody took it for criticism, they should have let it pass. Calling the jury was not very smart.

Ferghana.Ru: Lots of media outlets refused to feature you interviews...

Pavel Bardin: They did. There was also this strange episode with removal of the film from the Rolan running schedule. Well, things are changing. There was a period when we would have never even made the film in the first place because we'd have been imprisoned and felling trees somewhere in the north. But we did make the film. Nobody attacked me or pressed criminal charges... That's progress.

Ferghana.Ru: It certainly is, in terms of the year of 1937.

Pavel Bardin: It was not long ago, you know.

Ferghana.Ru: Neither was the war.

Pavel Bardin: Sure, if we compare 2009 and 1999, we'll see the difference immediately. All the same, certain progress is undeniable.